Our SFUSD Chinese content specialist created an educational game called “Chinese 1 2 3” for the students in the immersion programs. Click below to play.
Mandarin Immersion Parents Council
Information for parents of kids in Mandarin immersion education
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Many parents in San Francisco are spending this month deciding which schools they will list on the SFUSD lottery form. For parents interested in Chinese, there are five possible schools, three offering Cantonese immersion and two offering Mandarin.
A parent on the SF K Files found an interesting site that discusses the differences and similarities between Cantonese and Mandarin, from an English-speakers point of view. The author was a Mormon missionary so there are a few references that are obscure for non-Mormons, but overall it’s a very thorough (and at times extremely technical) description of the two languages. It might be a useful read for families pondering which programs to apply to.
I’ve posted the beginnings of the essay below. The full essay can be read at:
www.chinese-lessons.com/cantonese/difficulty.htm
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Mandarin vs. Cantonese:
Which is more difficult, Mandarin or Cantonese? To properly address this question, there are a couple things that need to be cleared up. First, what relation do Mandarin and Cantonese have, and why should they be compared? Second, what exactly is meant by “difficult?” In order to answer the first question, a little background on Chinese language is needed.
Many believe that Chinese is the language spoken in China. In some ways this is true; in others it is misleading. The statement is akin to remarking that European is the language spoken in Europe. Just as people in various nations of Europe speak different languages, Chinese in different provinces of China speak different languages. Ignoring the 56 official minority languages spoken in mainland China, there are over a hundred dialects of Chinese. These dialects are closely related and come from a common parent language.
The term “dialect” can be misleading. Generally, the idea of dialects differs from that of related languages in that dialects of the same language are mutually intelligible while separate languages are not. Chinese dialects are an exception. Part of the reason Chinese languages are referred to as dialects is that they share a common written language. Another reason is that there exists a continuum of intelligibility within Chinese: some dialects are more closely related than others.
Mandarin is clearly the most influential Chinese dialect and Cantonese is arguably the second most influential. They are also dialects on opposite sides of the Chinese language spectrum. While some speakers of Cantonese who have grown up in close contact with Mandarin speakers often learn to understand spoken Mandarin and vice versa, many others do not develop this ability and those who do not have the advantage of hearing the other language on a regular basis generally understand nothing of the other dialect. Those cases where speakers of one dialect comprehend the other can easily be understood as second language acquisition.
There is something of a rivalry between Mandarin and Cantonese. While Mandarin currently enjoys an exalted position as the official language of The People’s Republic of China and of Taiwan, Republic of China, Cantonese has a long history and closer ties to classical Chinese than Mandarin. Additionally, Cantonese still has a strong hold on important business centers in Southeast China and has its own measure of prestige. Cantonese is also the second most widely taught Chinese dialect for non-Chinese.
So then, as a matter of practicality and as a matter of pride, the question of which dialect is the more difficult becomes intriguing. Who has the right to boast, and which requires more effort to learn? Most English speakers who have learned both languages will say that Cantonese is the more difficult. Yet, is there any substance to that claim?
Chinese people can be just as cliquish as any other race, and language can be as clear a dividing line as any. To that end, native Mandarin speakers mock deficiencies in Canton people’s pronunciation of Mandarin. There’s even a cute rhyme that they use to express this sentiment succinctly:
天不怕，地不怕，只怕廣東人說普通話！
“Tian bu pa, di bu pa, zhi pa Guangdong ren shuo Putonghua.”
Translation- I fear neither heaven nor earth, I only fear Cantonese speakers trying to speak Mandarin.
Mandarin speakers learning Cantonese generally are encouraged in their efforts, but Canton people are no less proud of their language and culture. The Cantonese version of the rhyme sounds equally true:
天唔驚，地唔驚，只驚北方人講廣東話唔正！
“\Tin\ \mh\ \geng\, deih \mh\ \geng\ /ji/ \geng\ -bak- \fong\ \yahn\ /gong/ /gwong/ \dung\ wah \mh\ jehng.”
Translation- I fear neither heaven nor earth, I only fear Mandarin speakers speaking Cantonese so inaccurately.
Many natives of Hong Kong and Guangzhou (where Cantonese is the provincial mother tongue) speak Mandarin as a second language. Relatively few Chinese in Northern China (where Mandarin is the provincial mother tongue) ever learn Cantonese. This is certainly due in large part to the importance of Mandarin as the national language and the government mandate that Mandarin be taught in schools. However, could there be some basis for this in one dialect being more difficult for speakers of the other?
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The Mandarin Immersion Parents Council here in San Francisco focuses on the two Mandarin immersion public schools here, Starr King and Jose Ortega. But we get almost daily emails from parents around the country and around the world who are either interested in starting Mandarin immersion programs in their schools, or who have children attending an existing Mandarin immersion school.
Because our emails lists are pretty San Francisco-specific, we’ve created a new list for parents worldwide who are interested in Mandarin immersion education.
We’re hoping that the dozens of parents who’ve contacted us (from as far away as Canada and Hawaii) will join and help us create a community of parents who can offer advice and suggestions about how to start and nurture our Mandarin immersion schools so that they and our children flourish.
It will also be a place for parents from the literally dozens of schools we know of to share tips on everything from finding books and videos for our kids to how to help with homework when you don’t speak Chinese yourself.
To join visit our Yahoo Group page…
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mandarin_immersion
… or send email to Mandarin_immersion-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Thanks,
Beth Weise
MIPC
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Parents who are looking at Mandarin immersion in particular (i.e. Starr King and Jose Ortega) for Kindergarten should remember that it works a little different than other immersion and general education programs.
The District reserves half the spaces for Mandarin-speakers and the rest go to non-Mandarin speakers.
So in Round One of the lottery, only half of the spaces will go to non-Mandarin speakers, 22 at Starr King and 11 at Jose Ortega. Both schools have quite a few siblings this year, so those numbers will be even lower.
However – Historically (and we expect no huge change for 2010-2011) the Mandarin spaces have not filled. We have usually gotten between one and two Mandarin speakers per class.*
NOTE: If your child speaks Mandarin you will get in in Round One if you answer “Mandarin” to any of the four Home Language Survey questions on the application.
If you do not get in (but you answered yes to the Home Language Survey questions) it’s because of a glitch in the program. Run, do not walk, to the District. This happened to a couple of families last year and in each that we could identify, it just took one call or visit to the District to get the kid in. Pretty much any child who speaks Mandarin will get whichever school they want.
But there’s also good news for non-Mandarin speakers. Unlike almost all other programs, close to half the seats in Mandarin immersion open up in Round Two (and because of siblings this year it may be more seats in Round Two than Round One).
So, if your child does not speak Mandarin and you don’t get in to one of the Mandarin immersion programs in Round One, there is still a very good chance that you will get in in Round Two.
Parents of First Graders take note: There is no requirement that children coming in to 1st grade immersion have any knowledge of the target language (i.e. Mandarin.) Each year we have several families who come in to Mandarin Immersion in first grade and their kids do just fine. Because people move over the summer, there are almost always a few spaces open. If you’re thinking of this option, there are numerous camps and summer programs that can help your child become more comfortable with Mandarin over the summer. But kids who’ve just started cold, with no previous Mandarin experience, have also done fine.
If you have more questions, please contact the schools, or email us.
Beth Weise
President, Mandarin Immersion Parents Council—————————————————————–
*Why do so few Mandarin-speaking families apply to the Mandarin Immersion programs? Several reasons that we’ve heard:
– Often these families are most concerned about their child learning English, not Mandarin.
– They feel they can teach their children Mandarin at home.
– They prefer schools with higher test scores
– Some don’t feel comfortable in the neighborhoods where the schools are.
But actually, we’re not entirely sure. If you’re a Mandarin-speaker and have specific reasons you’re not interested in Mandarin immersion, we would love to hear them, as it might help us better create programs that appeal to our target families.
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(Shiho Fukada for The New York Times) This August New York Times Article by Hannah Seligson covers the decision of some American students to seek their fortune in China, even though they have no family there nor any knowledge of Mandarin. Here is an excerpt…
“Mick Zomnir, 20, a soon-to-be junior at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is working as a summer intern for JFP. ‘As things have gotten more difficult in the U.S., I started to think about opportunities elsewhere,’ he said. He does not speak Chinese but says he will begin studying Mandarin when he returns to M.I.T. in the fall”
Click here for the full article.
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Mandarin immersion timeline for SF Unified Students
2006 – 2007 First Mandarin Immersion class at Starr King, Kindergarten
2007 – 2008 SK 1st , first Mandarin Immersion class at Jose Ortega, Kindergarten
2008 – 2009 SK 2nd, JOES 1st
2009 – 2010 SK 3rd, JOES 2nd
2010 – 2011 SK 4th, JOES 3rd
2011 – 2012 SK 5th, JOES 4th
2012 – 2013 1st Middle School year
2013 – 2014 2nd Middle School year, 1st year for Jose Ortega students
2014 – 2015 3rd Middle School year
2015 – 2016 1st High School year
2016 – 2017 2nd High School year, 1st year for Jose Ortega students
2018 – 2019 3nd High School year
2020 – 2021 4nd High School year
2021 – 2022 First Mandarin Immersion SFUSD students enter college
2022 – 2023 1st year Jose Ortega students enter college
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Tuesday, Nov. 17, 6:00 PM
An evening for parents, co-sponsored by the Mandarin Immersion Parents Council
At the Chinese Immersion School at De Avila
1250 Waller Street, San Francisco, CA 94117
6:00pm Registration, KidsWatch check in, Volunteer/Ambassador/Panelist sign in
6:05pm Welcome and intro to PPS
6:10pm Welcome by Principal Rosina Tong, Chinese Immersion School at De Avila
6:15pm – 7:15pm Guest Speaker: Margaret Peterson, Program Administrator for Multilingual Programs
– Presentation on Immersion programs and other language options
– Q&A with Margaret & Kevin Chavez, Program Administrator for English Learner Support Services
7:15pm -7:45pm Parent Panel
Panelists:
Lisa Kirvin, Daniel Webster Elementary, Spanish Immersion
Nicole Hsieh, Chinese Immersion School at De Avila, Cantonese Immersion
Renee Tan, Starr King Elementary, Mandarin Immersion
Michele McMahon, Marshall Elementary, Spanish Immersion
7:45- End
Sponsored by
Parents for Public Schools-SF, www.ppssf.org, (415) 861-7077
San Francisco Advocates for Multilingual Excellence (SF AME) – join their listserv at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SF_AME/join
Mandarin Immersion Parent Council
Mandarin Immersion Parents Council 